| Name | Age | Level | P1 | P2 | Availability | Years | AFV | Salary | Surplus | Low | Median | High |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Cole Winn | 23 | Minors | SP | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2.3 | 1.8 | 2.3 | 2.7 | ||
| Justin Foscue | 24 | Minors | 2B | 0 | 0 | 0 | 19.3 | 15.5 | 19.3 | 23.2 | ||
| Jack Leiter | 23 | Minors | SP | 0 | 0 | 0 | 7.2 | 5.8 | 7.2 | 8.6 | ||
| Sebastian Walcott | 17 | Minors | 3B | 0 | 0 | 0 | 22 | 17.6 | 22 | 26.4 |
Total Value:
50.8
| Name | Age | Level | P1 | P2 | Availability | Years | AFV | Salary | Surplus | Low | Median | High |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Emmanuel Clase | 26 | Majors | RP | Low | 5 | 85.6 | 34.2 | 51.4 | 41.1 | 51.4 | 61.6 |
Total Value:
51.4
Two more infielders do not help the Cleveland Guardians. That just adds to their logjam without addressing their major outfield needs.
RangerRick, from the Cleveland side here. I don’t see the need to include Winn (I don’t think even Cleveland can fix him), all the others work for me. Would you be willing to remove Winn and replace him with Bratt (SP) @ 1.5 and Jesus Lopez (catcher) @ 1.7? A total of 51.7 now coming to Cleveland. Let me know if this is acceptable, thanks.
Mrvics, my comment was meant for Big Bat who tends, at times, to lecture too often for my liking. I don't even try to discuss with Gson as he is totally unwilling to hear opposing viewpoints. I at least think you try to listen to others. I respect that and thank you for that. I may not agree with you on all points, but I can respectfully discuss ideas with you. SportsCoach has it correct. He expressed well what I feel. Thanks Coach! I would be willing to move Clase if we get what I feel we most need, outfield help. An that outfield help should be ready to help in 2024 as well as beyond. As far as the playoffs go, get in and anything can happen. Did anyone seriously think Cleveland would make the 2016 World Series with all of the starting pitching injuries? I didn't. Likewise, I was very disappointed in 2017 when we were set up well and failed miserably. The playoffs are a crapshoot. I would rather get in a be a huge underdog, than to watch a wasted season. I watched far too many wasted seasons from 1965-1993. 2024 should be a positive building block for the future, not a step backwards again.
I lecture too much at times? I simply replied to you suggesting that they were waiving the middle finger at Ramirez and the fans TA. That's simply not true. Again, I want to be clear that like you I do not support this posted deal. IMO it's not even in the realm of realistic. Anyway, if they didn't make a single move before the season started it is likely they will see a spike in offense anyway. A full season of Bo. All of Manzardo, DeLauter, Rodriguez, Brito and Valera are all on the cusp of being ML players. I think it's a safe bet that whoever wins the SS job will provide more offensive production than we got last year. Florial was brought on and I think it's a safe bet that he provides a lot more offense than Straw, wouldn't you? As far as the 2016 playoffs go the Indians got in because they got fantastic seasons from their SP, Ramirez, Lindor, Kipnis, Santana, Chisenhall, the BP(especially Allen and Miller) and a few others. They lacked talent in their depth and that bit them in the ass when Kluber was exhausted and Martinez was the only bat remaining on the bench. My intentions are to build a rotation as good or better than the 2016 team's with better depth. I also intend to infuse a RH power hitter or 2 for the OF. Do that and we're on a run by 2025 and possibly this season if the stars align with these young, talented players. You don't get the type of young, talented players I speak of by dealing spare parts. We'll need to consider moving all of Bieber, Clase, McKenzie and Kwan if we're serious about getting what we need.
IF you are shopping Clase, which I follow logically, look around more. I think there are other places that could offer packages which don't consist of middle infielders. When they quit 2023 at the trade deadline only a game off lead, that showed where their mind, focus, loyalties were. Not dealing Bieber now indicates their read being the SP depth currently not enough to subtract him and keep any semblance of chance in 2024. Plus his value has plummeted. They hope he has good season so they can trade him by deadline. They would ride it out if QO rejection would bring better draft value than a trade. BigBat has indicated a window opening in 2025. He might be right. But that's another season away. Many folks want to give 2024 a shake.
Excellent take. The curious lack of trades could mean 2 things, either they think they have enough to win the Central, or they aren’t getting offers that are close to their internal evaluation. I’m ok with keeping Bieber. He will likely be more valuable to the team than his current low trade value. Clase though…I’m not enamored with closers and would rather trade him now at his high value. Another mediocre season and he just becomes another relief pitcher amongst many. It’s not worth the risk.
Well said, West Casey, very well said!
I think the only reason Bieber is still around is due to his untimely injury last season. Not dealing Bieber yet is only an indication of his market value. Teams just aren't willing to give up much in order to acquire him and Cleveland doesn't need low level or long shot prospects. If Shane comes into ST looking as good as rumored then that might inspire a few teams to offer more. We'll see. We've pretty much reached the same dilemma with McKenzie so it will be interesting to see what transpires with him too. The plan has been to be ready for a sustained, deep playoff run by 2025. Anything that happens before is icing on the cake. Guys like Manzardo, DeLauter, Brito, Valera, Florial and Rodriguez could make this a vastly improved offensive squad. I'm suspect of the SP depth which is why you've seen me post deals to acquire guys like Emmett Sheehan and Bryson Miller.
I think you nailed it. I’m very optimistic about Bieber (which is not my usual demeanor!). But he’ll be gone soon and I’m extremely concerned about the starting pitching depth. There’s just not much in the system. Maybe Cantillo, and I’m putting zero eggs in the Espino basket. Honestly what else? Dion? A Morgan clone. Messick is a good bet but a ways away. Clemmey even further away. Campbell, only God knows. Injuries will happen. If a hitter gets hurt it’s usually short term, a pitcher it could be a year and a half! This team as constructed cannot take this kind of hit. Any momentum for a deeper postseason run will stop in its tracks. The Dodgers had this issue, and their depth gets them through. Cleveland needs to position themselves against such a risk and they have not. Acquiring a bunch of borderline 5th starters just isn’t going to cut it.
How many infield prospects does Cleveland really need Mrvics? Instead, if we are going to make a trade, trade for what we need. What a novel idea!
It’s obvious Cleveland is willing to roll the dice on 2024. I seriously doubt the current team has any chance of winning a World Series (check the odds, they’re not good). A Clase trade is an opportunity to get as much talent as you possibly can, if it helps now, that’s fine, but future years matter as well. I believe the SS for Cleveland should be Gimenez. He’s the best defensive shortstop on the team, and possibly in the league. Foscue would now be the 2B, adding needed RH power. I think he has more offensive upside than Rocchio, Arias, and Brito. I would attempt to see if Brito can play left. If not then you can now trade all 3 players (instead of 2) for help in areas of weakness (I know, easier said than done). Texas is terrible at drafting and developing starting pitching. Cleveland is very good at this. I think Leiter can become a mid to TOR starter under Cleveland’s tutelage. Bratt (if this trade was revised) is very young, throws strikes (what Cleveland likes), and like Leiter, can be improved considerably in Cleveland’s system. Walcott is 17 and already #71 on the MLB top prospect list. Why turn that down? Yes, risk, but the upside could be phenomenal. Lopez (if added) at catcher improves an organizational weakness. That’s my logic anyway.
By adding two more middle infielders, you just lessen the value that all of the others that they have because teams will know that we have to move them. We will likely get pennies on the dollar for Rocchio, Arias, and the others or hope that they can move successfully to an outfield position which you seem to ignore. As far as 2024, trying to make progress is better than sticking the middle finger to Ramirez and the fanbase saying 2025, then 2026, then 2027. Look what 2022's playoff run did for attendance in 2023. Give up on 2024 before the season, attendance and TV ratings will plummet. How will that help when they go trying to find a new outlet to televise their games?
But they are sticking the middle finger at us! What have they done this off season? Nothing. 2 low level trades, one very bad FA signing, and picking up guys, if they’re lucky, become iffy 5th starters. If this team won 100 games, sure stand pat, but 76 wins? Have they added 10 to 14 wins? No. Can you get those wins just by having better health? Maybe, but so what?This team as currently constructed does not win a World Series. I think most Cleveland fans know this, but just don’t want to admit it.
Neither of you two get it. They've taken the time, effort and investment to assemble one of the youngest teams in MLB that has already experienced a bit of success. We'll have an entire season of Bo. We'll likely see an entire season with Manzardo. DeLauter, Rodriguez, Valera and Brito and close. We should see Cantillo soon and hopefully Espino later in the season. Walters is going to fly through the system. The design from the get go has been 2025 as the start of something special. They have the player and prospect currency to swing a deal if they choose, but they need to see a few of these prospects/players through. It doesn't matter what odds Vegas puts on them. There is a plan and they're seeing it through. I understand the impatience from the older crowd that doesn't want to wait any longer, but let's not be unrealistic about the scenario at hand. They'll add to this team when they have a better idea of exactly what it is they need. TA, I told you last year that 2025 was when the window starts to open so this shouldn't be a surprise to you. I also told you that wasn't my opinion as I too would love to see them get aggressive and add some power to this lineup, but it's just not in the cards yet as far as outside additions.
I’m not sure if your reply was to me or temporary. You are 100% correct. For this team to contend, and I mean really contend the stars need to align, and that’s just not happening in 2024. The core + the high end prospects that are coming soon is really good, but serious holes need to be filled. They should be doing this now with trades (and last year as well) because money won’t be spent on any serious FA’s (which is ok by me). If they don’t move Clase and he sucks or gets hurt this year I will be really pissed. Move him at his peak! They made the same mistake with Bieber last year. I’m all for moving guys now with 2025 or 2026 as the target. It’s realistically the only way to seriously contend.
You don't get my point or just choose to ignore it. One can improve 2025 and beyond while improving 2024 as well.
If I ignored you I apologize. I know what you want from the team, I just don’t see a path forward in 2024 for a World Series and probably like you I have been a fan for many years. I follow all major sports but baseball has always been my passion. I just think a better bet is to retool now with a more realistic chance in 25 or 26. I do think the Central is up for grabs in 24, but getting through potentially Baltimore, Texas, Houston, then LAD or Atlanta…not going to happen.
Which is what most, if not all of my deals do so I don't get why you're suggesting such to me. This deal is a garbage deal for Cleveland and I think we both agree on that. Nobody is "sticking the middle finger" to Ramirez or the fans for years as your post suggested. They are not in perpetual rebuild, but being a smaller market team that doesn't tank, dealing their valuable assets as more arise from the minors is the absolute best way to load this roster with the talent needed to make a deep playoff run and sustain success. "Just get in to the playoffs and anything can happen" is nothing short of bullshit and this fan would much rather take a more strategic approach than a wing and a prayer.
Classy as always. At least you are consistent. I am done with this discussion. It is just not worth it.
I feel like TA wants a bit more immediate help in the Clase deal and he wants to focus on RF not MIF for the bat if possible... This deal just doesn't hit on the players he feels we should get back for Clase IF they are going to trade him...
So do I and probably every single Guardians fan. This deal sucks and I in no way support it. I want that to be clear.