We’ve seen some doozies around here, but this one is about as good as any of them. The thought of how ridiculous this is from Cleveland’s perspective had to cross your mind.
1. India plays 2nd, Gimenez moves to short.
2. Espino will probably turn into Ethan Hankins and never play in the majors
3. Valeria is overrated and will probably not even be as good as Benson and Nolan Jones who we had no problem moving for 2 peanut butter and jelly sandwiches after playing less than half a season with the big club!
4. Cleveland “thinks about” horrible deals all the time and pulls a lot of them. Go back and look at what we traded for Straw….
1) What are we supposed to do with the 3 top 100 prospects (at some point) that are currently on the big league roster that play MIF? India hasn’t been good since his rookie season, sub 100 OPS+… Lower OPS+ than Amed Rosario has had… lol
2) Cleveland refused to trade Espino, so now they are just dumping him? That’s not their style, so for better or for worse, Espino is going to stay in Cleveland…
3) Even if Valera is overrated, they aren’t just going to go get a journeyman RF with little defense and no track record to replace him…
4) We got Straw for a RP and a guy who is a hitter not a catcher… He’s not going to make it in the bigs as a catcher… Straw has been one of the best defensive CF and it was something we weer missing. The extension was maybe given too soon, otherwise he was a good pick up for a RP and a guy at A ball…
5) I don’t think the A’s want to trade Sears right now anyways…
1. So we block Rocchio and our middle depth for a below average player.
2. Espino is just 22 with tremendous potential. Way too early to give up on him. Cleveland would have lost Carlos Carrasco and Tristan McKenzie with your impatience.
3. Rooker is a one month wonder and will turn 29 in November. What has he accomplished? He is no better than your peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
1. India isn’t as good as any of Gimenez, Rocchio or Freeman. Especially defensively and he can’t hit for shit outside of Great American Small Park.
2. Espino may not make it as a SP, but he’ll be a lockdown closer at the least. Right now, he’s still an incredibly valuable SP prospect that despite his injuries remains in every top 100 prospect list that I’ve seen. Take a close look at what Williams and Bibee are doing the tell yourself that neither one of them are as good as Espino.
3. You’re grasping at straws trying to predict Valera’s end results. He’s a top 100 prospect as well and extremely young at every level he’s played.
4. We desperately needed a CFer when that deal was made. Diaz was in A ball and didn’t look like he could stick at C. In retrospect, sure we’d like to have Diaz’s bat, but at the time it looked like a good deal. You can do this with every team in MLB if you remove your bias.
I agree that Valera is over-rated so why would I want the A’s to acquire him? Espino has a ton of talent but he hasn’t pitched in a game since April, 2022 and if Oakland is putting Sears on the table then there needs to be a healthy arm in the return.
The A’s would want to acquire him because he would instantly be in their top 3 prospects. How is a prospect over-rated when he’s been 3+ yrs younger than the average at every level? He started the season healing from a broken hamate bone and outside of his first taste of AAA this season has been a very good, young hitter with power. You can continue to suggest that Valera is over-rated, but the A’s would jump at the opportunity to acquire him. Especially for what little is being given up by the A’s. If anyone in this deal is “over-rated” it’s all of India, Rooker and Sears. Sears pitching in GABP would be a disaster, India’s numbers fall off the table away from GABP and Rooker was a flash in the pan this season.
No team would give up a SP prospect like Espino in a deal like this because it would be ridiculously foolish even with his injury. Oakland again, would jump all over this because Espino becomes their best prospect. I would want something much better than Allen from the Reds if I were an Oakland fan.
Objectively speaking, Valera is a 45FV on Fangraphs, a 50/High on BA, and a 50 for MLB. That would rank him tied for 6th on FG, no better than 5th per BA, and 1 of 7 players vying for 4th with MLB.
So “top 3 prospect” is already off the table. In the case of BA and MLB, Valera and Butler earn the same grades but while Valera recovers from yet another injury (and I think his medicals are his biggest red flag) Lawrence Butler has earned the chance to show what he can do in the majors. It’s not just the Green and Gold glasses that make me give Butler the nod over Valera.
I think the A’s would be mistaken to “jump” at acquiring Valera; akin to their decisions on so many other trades of late. I think Valera ends up a bust. If you want him to stay in the Cleveland organization and prove me wrong then that’s a great idea for both sides. By the way, Valera’s first taste of AAA came in 2022 and he did show good pop.
As for Espino… adding him to the organization might make him the most talented prospect in the system but I prefer guys physically able to play baseball. And while you might be tempted to say Espino will be good to go next spring, keep in mind that was the story on him this time last year and it didn’t come to pass. I’m OK if you think Sears and Rooker are over-rated. I’ve no interest in selling you on either player and would much rather talk about guys you actually like.
I understand your pause with Valera and Espino’s injuries. Me, I like to look for high ceiling guys coming off injury that could be had from teams willing to deal them. It’s basically how Cleveland got Kluber and Clevinger. After getting the value from their play Cleveland’s FO turned them into Clase, J. Naylor, Quantrill and Cantillo.
Regardless of Espino’s injuries, no small/medium revenue team gives up on or sells low on a talent like that so soon. They’re better off gambling on the talent then taking a shitty return like this one. I would hope for you A’s fans sake that they wouldn’t do something so stupid either.
We can argue about Valera until he either tanks are regains his performance level that has been with him every season except this one. Butler strikes out more, walks less and can’t touch Valera’s exit velocities to FG’s FV value isn’t worth much IMO.
Missing the first 6 weeks after having a hamate bone removed and then going on the IL shortly after his return with a mild hamstring strain will destroy any prospect’s performance. He’s been a top 100 prospect and will likely get right back to where he was with a normal offseason. I’ll argue all day that Butler was/is not on the same level as Valera and every prospect list available would same the same thing. I just watched him hit his 2nd HR of the game and I expect to see him finish the season strong now that he is healthy and getting consistent playing time.
It sounds like you haven’t taken a look at Lawrence Butler in 2023. He made a drastic change in his swing/approach after last season, cutting his K-rate from ~32% in High-A to 19% in AA/AAA this year. Valera has been sitting in the 25-26% K-rate the last two seasons. Valera has an egde in Walk-rate, running 12-13% to Butler’s 8-9%.
Here’s the Exit Velocities I could find on both hitters in AAA, courtesy of ProspectsLive:
Player A: Max EV = 109.1; 95% EV = 107.2; Ave EV = 90
Player B: Max EV = 109.6; 95% EV = 108.1; Ave EV = 90
The argument that Butler “can’t touch” Valera’s EVs is false. BA’s August update lists both players as 50/High prospects. MLB’s August update lists both players as 50 Overall. To which lists are you referring that will show Valera as a higher rated prospect?
To be clear on Espino… I understand the argument to hold on to him and I wouldn’t be willing to move him for the above package. I think I’d be more open to moving him than you (at his current value) if I thought it would bring more impact to the roster. But that’s a hypothetical scenario for another time.
You got Kluber for two months of Westbrook. You got Clevinger for a bullpen arm. The A’s are giving up a lot more value in the above proposal and shouldn’t be building their deals around injured talent.
I also don’t get why you would trade Sears right now anyways since the Murphy deal seemed to make you believe the A’s are trying to compete way sooner than would be possible… Espino could be a monster, and physically he is, but he hasn’t been on the mound and that’s what matters… I would do this deal if I was the A’s nor the Guardians
I need to know whatever you are smoking since you seem to have the good stuff lol
This is a horrible deal for Cleveland and one they would never even think about…
Where does India play? Rooker did not hit in May, June, and so far in August. Nothing here that is of interest to me.
We’ve seen some doozies around here, but this one is about as good as any of them. The thought of how ridiculous this is from Cleveland’s perspective had to cross your mind.
1. India plays 2nd, Gimenez moves to short.
2. Espino will probably turn into Ethan Hankins and never play in the majors
3. Valeria is overrated and will probably not even be as good as Benson and Nolan Jones who we had no problem moving for 2 peanut butter and jelly sandwiches after playing less than half a season with the big club!
4. Cleveland “thinks about” horrible deals all the time and pulls a lot of them. Go back and look at what we traded for Straw….
1) What are we supposed to do with the 3 top 100 prospects (at some point) that are currently on the big league roster that play MIF? India hasn’t been good since his rookie season, sub 100 OPS+… Lower OPS+ than Amed Rosario has had… lol
2) Cleveland refused to trade Espino, so now they are just dumping him? That’s not their style, so for better or for worse, Espino is going to stay in Cleveland…
3) Even if Valera is overrated, they aren’t just going to go get a journeyman RF with little defense and no track record to replace him…
4) We got Straw for a RP and a guy who is a hitter not a catcher… He’s not going to make it in the bigs as a catcher… Straw has been one of the best defensive CF and it was something we weer missing. The extension was maybe given too soon, otherwise he was a good pick up for a RP and a guy at A ball…
5) I don’t think the A’s want to trade Sears right now anyways…
1. So we block Rocchio and our middle depth for a below average player.
2. Espino is just 22 with tremendous potential. Way too early to give up on him. Cleveland would have lost Carlos Carrasco and Tristan McKenzie with your impatience.
3. Rooker is a one month wonder and will turn 29 in November. What has he accomplished? He is no better than your peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
1. India isn’t as good as any of Gimenez, Rocchio or Freeman. Especially defensively and he can’t hit for shit outside of Great American Small Park.
2. Espino may not make it as a SP, but he’ll be a lockdown closer at the least. Right now, he’s still an incredibly valuable SP prospect that despite his injuries remains in every top 100 prospect list that I’ve seen. Take a close look at what Williams and Bibee are doing the tell yourself that neither one of them are as good as Espino.
3. You’re grasping at straws trying to predict Valera’s end results. He’s a top 100 prospect as well and extremely young at every level he’s played.
4. We desperately needed a CFer when that deal was made. Diaz was in A ball and didn’t look like he could stick at C. In retrospect, sure we’d like to have Diaz’s bat, but at the time it looked like a good deal. You can do this with every team in MLB if you remove your bias.
Down vote for Oakland.
I agree that Valera is over-rated so why would I want the A’s to acquire him? Espino has a ton of talent but he hasn’t pitched in a game since April, 2022 and if Oakland is putting Sears on the table then there needs to be a healthy arm in the return.
The A’s would want to acquire him because he would instantly be in their top 3 prospects. How is a prospect over-rated when he’s been 3+ yrs younger than the average at every level? He started the season healing from a broken hamate bone and outside of his first taste of AAA this season has been a very good, young hitter with power. You can continue to suggest that Valera is over-rated, but the A’s would jump at the opportunity to acquire him. Especially for what little is being given up by the A’s. If anyone in this deal is “over-rated” it’s all of India, Rooker and Sears. Sears pitching in GABP would be a disaster, India’s numbers fall off the table away from GABP and Rooker was a flash in the pan this season.
No team would give up a SP prospect like Espino in a deal like this because it would be ridiculously foolish even with his injury. Oakland again, would jump all over this because Espino becomes their best prospect. I would want something much better than Allen from the Reds if I were an Oakland fan.
Objectively speaking, Valera is a 45FV on Fangraphs, a 50/High on BA, and a 50 for MLB. That would rank him tied for 6th on FG, no better than 5th per BA, and 1 of 7 players vying for 4th with MLB.
So “top 3 prospect” is already off the table. In the case of BA and MLB, Valera and Butler earn the same grades but while Valera recovers from yet another injury (and I think his medicals are his biggest red flag) Lawrence Butler has earned the chance to show what he can do in the majors. It’s not just the Green and Gold glasses that make me give Butler the nod over Valera.
I think the A’s would be mistaken to “jump” at acquiring Valera; akin to their decisions on so many other trades of late. I think Valera ends up a bust. If you want him to stay in the Cleveland organization and prove me wrong then that’s a great idea for both sides. By the way, Valera’s first taste of AAA came in 2022 and he did show good pop.
As for Espino… adding him to the organization might make him the most talented prospect in the system but I prefer guys physically able to play baseball. And while you might be tempted to say Espino will be good to go next spring, keep in mind that was the story on him this time last year and it didn’t come to pass. I’m OK if you think Sears and Rooker are over-rated. I’ve no interest in selling you on either player and would much rather talk about guys you actually like.
I understand your pause with Valera and Espino’s injuries. Me, I like to look for high ceiling guys coming off injury that could be had from teams willing to deal them. It’s basically how Cleveland got Kluber and Clevinger. After getting the value from their play Cleveland’s FO turned them into Clase, J. Naylor, Quantrill and Cantillo.
Regardless of Espino’s injuries, no small/medium revenue team gives up on or sells low on a talent like that so soon. They’re better off gambling on the talent then taking a shitty return like this one. I would hope for you A’s fans sake that they wouldn’t do something so stupid either.
We can argue about Valera until he either tanks are regains his performance level that has been with him every season except this one. Butler strikes out more, walks less and can’t touch Valera’s exit velocities to FG’s FV value isn’t worth much IMO.
Missing the first 6 weeks after having a hamate bone removed and then going on the IL shortly after his return with a mild hamstring strain will destroy any prospect’s performance. He’s been a top 100 prospect and will likely get right back to where he was with a normal offseason. I’ll argue all day that Butler was/is not on the same level as Valera and every prospect list available would same the same thing. I just watched him hit his 2nd HR of the game and I expect to see him finish the season strong now that he is healthy and getting consistent playing time.
It sounds like you haven’t taken a look at Lawrence Butler in 2023. He made a drastic change in his swing/approach after last season, cutting his K-rate from ~32% in High-A to 19% in AA/AAA this year. Valera has been sitting in the 25-26% K-rate the last two seasons. Valera has an egde in Walk-rate, running 12-13% to Butler’s 8-9%.
Here’s the Exit Velocities I could find on both hitters in AAA, courtesy of ProspectsLive:
Player A: Max EV = 109.1; 95% EV = 107.2; Ave EV = 90
Player B: Max EV = 109.6; 95% EV = 108.1; Ave EV = 90
The argument that Butler “can’t touch” Valera’s EVs is false. BA’s August update lists both players as 50/High prospects. MLB’s August update lists both players as 50 Overall. To which lists are you referring that will show Valera as a higher rated prospect?
To be clear on Espino… I understand the argument to hold on to him and I wouldn’t be willing to move him for the above package. I think I’d be more open to moving him than you (at his current value) if I thought it would bring more impact to the roster. But that’s a hypothetical scenario for another time.
You got Kluber for two months of Westbrook. You got Clevinger for a bullpen arm. The A’s are giving up a lot more value in the above proposal and shouldn’t be building their deals around injured talent.
I also don’t get why you would trade Sears right now anyways since the Murphy deal seemed to make you believe the A’s are trying to compete way sooner than would be possible… Espino could be a monster, and physically he is, but he hasn’t been on the mound and that’s what matters… I would do this deal if I was the A’s nor the Guardians